Tad Safran and Molly Watson
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Tad: Molly, tell me...how much are you being paid for this column?
Molly: I assume the same as you.
Tad: Would you have a problem if I were paid more?
Molly: Too right I would. We do the same job.
Tad: So you think men and women should be paid the same. I can't help but feel that there's something inherently unfair about that.
Molly: Let's get this straight - you're actually saying that you find it unfair for men and women to be paid the same to carry out the same work.
Tad: Well, yes. Not just unfair for men, but for companies that employ them and for the economy as a whole.
Molly: How do you figure that?
Tad: Well, in most industries, there is a period of training, which is at considerable expense to a company. With male employees, the expense will be amortised over the next four or so decades because men will work until they die or retire. The majority of women will choose to stop working after a decade or so and the money spent on their training will be thrown out with the dirty nappies.
Molly: Oh where to start...I'd be gripped to learn more about these hapless corporate enterprises and Western democracies choosing, through free market economics, no less, to recruit and develop hordes of intrinsically less profitable female employees.
Tad: “Free market”? There are reams of laws regulating this kind of stuff.
Molly: I don't think companies recruit women just because they feel obliged to. They do it because bright people are always in short supply. Corporate success isn't just a matter of getting hold of a load of spuds and giving them this magical training you talk about. A meritocratic job market serves the economy you are so anxious about because it represents the most efficient allocation of limited resources.
Tad: Interesting you bring up efficient allocation of resources. It costs the NHS the same to train a man or a woman to be a doctor. But 48 per cent of women doctors are part-time while only 5 per cent of male doctors are part-time. Which is a better return on the taxpayers' investment?
Molly: So presumably the logical conclusion of your argument would be that it is wasteful to bother even educating women enough to enter the job market if so many of them are going to end up doing nothing more intellectually strenuous than childcare. What then for the women who by your reckoning aren't even going to become baby machines? What should their talents be channelled towards? Knitting? Embroidery? The pianoforte?
Tad: I'm not saying that women shouldn't benefit from every opportunity the world has to offer just the same as men. They simply should not complain if they're paid less. Just seems a bit dog-in-the-manger-y considering men work longer and die younger.
Molly: What planet do you reside on, Tad? I'm yet to meet the woman who has decided to pursue a career out of some dog-in-the manger desire to deprive her male counterpart of a job.
Tad: I reside on the planet where men pay for women. Women say that they want to be treated equally, but have you ever seen a women reach for her purse when the waiter brings the bill? It's like watching a glacier move. And yet, on average, women save 30 per cent less of their salary than men. They know - way at the back of their minds, even if they don't want to admit it - that they don't necessarily have to save for the future because they may be able to rely on someone else. Men do not have that luxury.
Molly: Even supposing, for argument's sake, that modern families are actually organised so that mummy stays home and bakes apple pie while daddy goes out as sole breadwinner, you are still way off beam here. All the evidence shows that women who break their careers to have children trade in a world of professional recognition, job satisfaction and, of course, salary, for one where they are basically unpaid, undervalued labourers bringing up future generations. And they do this just in time to miss out on the top and most lucrative jobs, which men can then neatly step into. If anything women should be paid more while they are in full-time employment to compensate them for the years of domestic serfdom that may lie ahead. Yet almost more anger-inducing than your arguments is that in reality women earn 20 per cent less than men within a year of graduation and 30 per cent less a decade later. So you win. You don't win fair - but you win.
Tad: I'm starting to think you get paid by the word.
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I'd happily settle for earning less than a man for comparable work if my all expenses were proportionally less: my groceries, mortgage payments, utilities, meds and health care, clothing, my kids' needs -- in short, virtually everything I use my wages to pay for. But until that happens, forget it!
Zoe, Warren Glen, NJ, USA
How is this average of 20% worked out. In every job that I have applied for, the pay has been the same irrespective of sex?
What has annoyed me, is that a lady back after maternity leave argued she should be getting better quality work to "catch up with me" on the experience she lost! Equality?
NB, Bolton,
Training women a waste of company money, what tosh! 20 years later I'm working for the same employer. I work in a male dominated service that really, really can't look after you and your family without women. Real life is more complicated and I shouldn't have joined in this light chat.
C.Williams, Kingston, England
(like women are more likely to take time off their careers to care sometime in the future) we should, ooo lets do something nice and arbitrary, lets say lock them up one day a year. (like for women something arbitry like a 20% dock in pay). How do we justify it?
Fay, Chennai, India
We say its only fair for society, men are more likely to commit crimes. (We say its only fair for the companies, women are more likly to leave work to become full time carers). This is how ridiculous Tad's argument is.
Fay, Chennai, India
There are many companies where the management is conscious of a supposedly 'male' image, eg in engineering, and the feminist 'glass-ceiling' propaganda, such that women now get fast-tracked to promotion on the basis of gender alone, leaving more able male colleagues behind on lower status and pay.
Paul, Coventry,
In my own experiences over many years, I agree that women should be paid the same as men only if they do the same job for the same number of years.
It is absolutely the case that men have much less sympathy for 'family difficulties', and that most women work fewer hours, and work for fewer years.
cap, Lincoln, UK
re all of those quoting women's time off work as a reason to justify the pay-gap: If a couple is having a child and looking at how to organize it all it makes economic sense to have the person who earns less put their career second. The way things are at the moment, that person is usually the woman.
Maggie, Berlin,
Which means unequal pay is one of the key reasons for what you use to justify unequal pay. Fair? Hardly.
Maggie, Berlin,
G. Parker, New Zealand - there is no retirement age in NZ and superannuation is not paid to either men or women until the age of 65. Where do you get your "men work five years longer than women" from?
Vivienne , London,
Phil. Wimbledon is an event with market. Sport doesn't run on hourly rates.
Paula Radcliffe works longer to run a marathon than the male world record holder. Higher pay for her on your basis. But she often gets more simply because of (guess what) her market value.
Vicky, Germany,
Tad's diatribe is absurd. Few people today will work in the same industry for 40 years. Besides, if women were to be paid less, then in a credit crunch, it makes perfect economic sense to sack all those men who will have priced themselves out of the market, with their excessive wage demands.
Kate Winspur, Melbourne, Australia
men progress further and faster because, by and large, they are prepared to put up with stress, unpleasant conditions, difficult bosses and colleagues etc to get on. Women, again by and large, have as their priority a congenial working atmosphere. Once enjoying that, they are happy to stay there.
gordon w, didcot, UK
All other things being equal, women should be paid the same as men. However, all other things are not equal; to the favour of women and to the detriment of men. Hence men should be paid more than women.
Arcland, Seaham,
And women tend to have 'problems' periodically with time not functioning properly or time off.
Then you have the stupid Wimbeldon Tennis prizes - women wanting the same amount as men for playing 3 sets when men can play up to 5 sets.
Phil, Preston,
Pay should be determined by one thing alone - and that is performance. If a person is good at what they do, they should be recognised for it; and that it not effected by sex, age, creed, colour or anything else.
There can be no excuse for any type of discrimination in this day and age.
Tony, Mayfield, England
Should men be paid more than other men?
Richard Hoblyn FSI, Limoges, FRANCE
In the companies where I have worked there was a larger turn-over of men than women. Men will move to a job on the other side of the country to improve their career and their wives will go with them (but not the other way around). They then receive more pay than women to try and retain them!
Sarah Knight, Oxford,
There should not be equal pay. More time off is taken by women. So why should they receive the same pay.
victor arram, westcliff,
The issue may be one of measurement. Currently retirement ages are 65 for men and 60 for women, who live longer, and therefore receive more in pensions. On that basis paying men and women "equally" makes men cheaper, and therefore more attractive to employ.
Dave, Slough,
G. Parker from NZ: The state pension age in the UK is now equal between men and women born after April 1955.
Ruth, Reading, UK
Tad, your argument that companies invest in employees and expect to see a return over the next four decades is clearly false, employees move between companies and even industries all the time, long gone are the days of a job for life.
Brett, London, UK
If basic saleries(?) were scrapped and everyone got paid by the hour (at the same rate) im sure we would see an increase in workplace productivity.
Getting paid for the amount you do is the fairest way.....gues id better get back to work!
sophie, northampton,
As men, on average, have longer (and unbroken) careers and that it is the last years that are the best paid it is a simple truism that men's average pay is higher, and deservedly so.
Mal, Chester, uk
How about equal pay for equal work? Both men and women should start out on the same salary, but if either has a career break, to have kids, write a novel or whatever, they can't presume to come back to the same salary they would have had if they hadn't had a break. Ultimately it's about choices.
Bill, Yeovil, UK
Indeed Parker and the number of years National insurance contributions are paid to receive the exact same state pension you mentioned is 39 years for women and 44 years for men.
Molly needs to do her homework as women are already compensated.
mortimer, Reading,
What are the comparisons? A single woman to a married man with a wife and children? Perhaps what ought to be addressed is why -in the purely monetary system as it exists today- are some people paid a lot more than others?
People all ought to have the same quality of life without prejudice.
Peter Richardson, Kippens, Canada
Women should get paid on an 'equal' basis. However the definition of 'equal' is a long way off the definition used by the 'equal opportunities quango'.
Simon, York,
Why should women be paid more to compensate for domestic serfdom?
They choose to do this - Nobody makes them have children and I just don't believe that they're selflessly raising the next generation for the good of society.
Don't expect to be compensated for what is essentially a selfish act
sarah, london,
I'm 31, I was sterilised at 24, I've never had children and never will. Does Tad think I should be paid the same as a man for the same job? Not every woman is a mother-in-waiting. And more & more men have the opportunity to be stay-at-home or part-time working fathers these days.
L Porter, London,
This is such a vain debate... You will never get a male chauvinist to agree with a feminist as both are of bad faith to the highest degree. And real life is just so much more complicated than this low-level discussion...
Elise, Paris, France
As you say Tad women live longer, thanks to age discrimination laws we can work 40 years + too. The only difference is we'll still be working when you're pushing daises. We'll probably have to as we were thoughtlessly raising the next generation instead of paying into our pension scheme <roll eyes>
Emma, Southampton, UK
It's strange how the retirement age never seems to be on women's agenda. Men work five years longer than women.They want equal pay ,but not equal retirement ages it seems. Can you imagine if this was reversed and men sat at home five years before women. Women seem to want it all.
g.Parker, auckland , new zealand