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From The Times

August 18, 2008

Nato torn between threats and caution over Russia and Georgia

Diplomats say there is no hope of reaching a consensus on any strong action

An elderly Georgian woman walks past a Russian armoured vehicle in Gori

Michael Evans, Defence Editor

Britain is pushing to suspend security co-operation with Russia as its aggressive actions in Georgia expose deep divisions within Nato as to how Moscow should be punished.

Nato foreign ministers are meeting for a special session on Georgia in Brussels tomorrow. Already there is disagreement between the United States and Britain on one side, which want to take a tough approach, and Germany and France, which are urging a more cautious stance. They are likely to block attempts to send Nato military monitors into Georgia.

“We don’t want to leave the Russians out in the cold but we want to make it clear to Moscow that it’s no longer going to be business as usual,” one British diplomatic source said.

The Foreign and Commonwealth Office confirmed last night that David Miliband, the Foreign Secretary, will visit Georgia after the Nato meeting.

Robert Gates, the US Defence Secretary, said that Russia’s action had been adversarial and that Moscow appeared to be “heading back to its past”. He described its actions in Georgia as aggressive.

Moscow was criticised by other Western leaders yesterday as it delayed implementing the terms of the EU-brokered ceasefire it signed on Saturday. It promised to begin the withdrawal of troops today.

The Nato members that want to send the strongest-worded condemnation of Russian military action in Georgia are expected to underline the serious repercussions for the future if the alliance is seen to be ambivalent in confronting Moscow.

With both Georgia and Ukraine seeking full Nato membership, President Medvedev of Russia has already given warning that Russia reserved the right to protect its citizens wherever they were living.

The promised pull-out of Russian troops from Georgia was announced by Mr Medvedev in a telephone conversation with President Sarkozy of France. He said that they would move towards South Ossetia, the breakaway region of the country where the conflict began after Georgian troops tried to gain control of the territory with a military offensive. Such a promise, however, has been made before; the Russian leader also indicated that a large force might remain in South Ossetia. Russia had only about 1,000 peacekeepers in the region before the fighting flared up.

Mr Sarkozy said that there would be “serious consequences” if the withdrawal of Russian troops did not begin; and Condoleezza Rice, the US Secretary of State, who has been in Georgia, said: “I hope this time he will keep his word.”

One American/British proposal for the Brussels meeting will be to suspend the security co-operation between the West and Moscow, enshrined in the Nato/Russia Council which consults regularly over issues of mutual interest, such as counterterrorism and regional stability, and which was set up in 2002 specifically to draw the West and Russia closer together. There will also be moves to approve a request from President Saakashvili, the Georgian leader, for Nato to send military monitors to the former Soviet republic to monitor any Russian activities that might breach the ceasefire and withdrawal promises made by Moscow.

However, diplomatic sources for the alliance said that there appeared to be no hope of reaching consensus among the Nato foreign ministers over either of these issues. Offers of help from Nato are expected to be restricted to humanitarian assistance.

Germany made its position clear yesterday when Frank-Walter Steinmeier, the Foreign Minister, urged the alliance not to opt for a “knee-jerk reaction” to the conflict by suspending either the Nato/Russian Council or the current talks on a partnership and co-operation agreement between Moscow and the European Union, or even preventing Russia from joining the World Trade Organisation.

The one area where Nato foreign ministers are likely to achieve consensus is over Georgia’s right to become a member of the alliance. This was agreed at the Nato summit in Bucharest in April but it will be reaffirmed by the foreign ministers in Brussels. The final decision, however, on whether to invite Georgia and Ukraine to join Nato’s membership action plan, the first step towards becoming a member, will not be made until December.

Germany and France both voted against allowing Georgia and Ukraine to start the membership action plan but agreed with all the other alliance members that both countries would one day join Nato. Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor, confirmed yesterday that Germany supported Georgia’s aspirations. Alliance sources said that, even if Nato foreign ministers approved the action plan in December, it could take up to ten years before membership was finally approved.

Despite the divisions in the alliance, American and British diplomats are hopeful that the meeting in Brussels tomorrow will send a strong signal to Moscow that Nato supports Georgia and condemns the breach by Russian troops of the former Soviet republic’s territorial integrity and sovereignty.

The permanent representatives of Nato’s decision-making North Atlantic Council are due to visit Georgia next month. The trip was planned before the present crisis.

Timeline of the conflict

August 1 Fighting breaks out between Georgian forces and separatists in South Ossetia

August 7 Georgian forces shell Tskhinvali. Russia moves troops into South Ossetia

August 8 Georgian troops driven back by Russian counter-offensive

August 10 Russia bombs areas near Tbilisi. Georgia admits losing control of Tskhinvali

August 11 Georgia says Russian planes bombed civilian targets. South Ossetia's rebel government says Georgia shelled residential areas. Georgian President signs EU proposal. Russia accuses US of flying in Georgian troops from Iraq

August 13 President Bush warns Russia “must act to end this crisis”

August 14 First shipments of aid to Georgia. A Russian commander says troops starting to withdraw.

August 15 Mr Bush accuses Russia of “bullying”. US-Polish missile deal angers Russia, which says it will redirect missiles at Poland

August 17 Russia promises troop pullout will start today

If NATO is incapable of taking hard action to punish Russia and extract an immediate tangible price (e.g. sinking their Black Sea fleet, destroying key petroleum infrastructure assets ), then scrap NATO and move to a new alliance of US plus Poland/Ukraine/Balts/Georgia/Bulgaria/UK. Cut EU loose.

C.B. Saunders, Boston, MA, USA

Nato and the EU faiI again. Why the surprise. This is as easy to predict as the next sunrise.

Christopher Holland, Canberra, Australia

Bush and Brown would benefit from studying Henry Kissingers PhD thesis at Harvard , "A World Restored : Metternich and Castlereagh and the problems of peace,1812-1822". We are back in the Politics and the Balance of Power of the Europe of the 19th Century.
But alas ! "B&B " are not "M&C".

Axel-Ivan Lagerborg, London, UK

The hypochrisy is amazing. Georgia started this conflict.Russia's reaction was over the top.Can someone please explain how this can possibly compare to the USA attacking Serbia when none of it's citizens were under threat and it was in a different continent.What about Iraq& those deadly weapons!!!

Chris, Melbourne, Australia

It's "Gut Check" Time. Either the NATO nations of Old Europe turn to and face down the Bear, or it's time to put the organization to sleep, it having clearly outlived its usefulness.

peter, miami, usa

In the end, Western civilisation which holds supreme the rights of the individual to hold power over the state, will prevail. Nothing of any value has ever come out of Russia these last 100 years because your system is not conducive for ideas or wealth. If we don't like our leaders, we remove them

Boris, Moscow, Russia

The rapid decline of the west(UK/USA) is fully visible in their outrageous propoganda campaign and hypocrisy. This will only strengthen Russian resolve and the Resource poor USA/UK will lose. UK/USA/Israel are the true rogue states - an axis of evil.

Dan, Philadelphia, USA

Pawel,

no cities demolished, according to UN. Gori minimal damage.
force citizens to leave - 35,000 Ossetian refugees not important. Why you lie?
Dan

Dan, Philadelphia, USA

What country would tolerate a military alliance on its doorstep? Would the USA tolerate aggressiv military alliance in Mexico?Great Britain a hostile military alliance in Scotland after it declares independence? Wester cynicism and hyprocrisy is staggering.

Dan, Philadelphia, USA

NATO was meant to deter aggression against member nations. It has also been used to handle conflicts in areas that members deemed to have significant interests. Georgia, Ukraine, etc. fall into this. It's time to start cranking up the pressure to get Russia to end its invasion & honor the ceasefire.

Jill, Pittsburgh, PA, USA

One of the Russian TV commentators said a few days ago that "it is impossible to win information war on the enemy territory". No matter how right Russia is, the West will continue to blame Russia and protect their interests no matter what. It is important not to bend under so called "pressure" .

Anton, Urjupinsk, Russia

NATO was an anti-SOVIET organisation. Not anti-Russia. Just like the Warsaw Pact was anti-west.
In the same way a number of ex-British-empire countries still refer to the Privy Council, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Sergey, Serbia is not Russia.

Pete, Billericay,

Sack the diplomats - tough speaking and tough stances are required.

Threats by Russian Generals to a NATO member, Poland, are unacceptable.

Also lies to the French leader regarding the Georgian cease fire agreement must not be accepted like a slap in the face.

Richard, Bucharest,

Let Germany join Russia. We don't want them in NATO - & certainly not tpoo have the right of VETO against US & UK decisions.

A rewite of the treaty is long overdue

Richard, Bucharest,

Georgia is in Russia's sphere of influence. Georgia attacked ethnic Russians that it was anyway persecuting: Russia retaliated. I dare say the US would invoke the Monroe doctrine should Russia take exception to any American move in the Caribbean?

C Smith, Norwich, UK

It is very a pity, that in confrontation of large world powers as Russia and the USA, peace inhabitants and simple people become hostages of geopolitic games. Authority, money and military power the world, predetermine peace, conscience and fairness. But South Ossetia and Abkhazia will be independent sooner or later and it is necessary to recognize it a unique output for achievement of the world in this region.

Khacatur, Novorossiysk, Russia

The EU fails yet again, negotiating a 'cease-fire' which gets totally ignored for a week by the Russians. Who is called upon to step in and actually take some concrete action? Yes, the 'Great Satan' needs to save the day in our own backyard. I will take the 'special relationship' any day, thanks.

William, Oxford, United Kingdom

At least the Americans are consistent in their foreign policy: viz intervene in the business of others if it suits their agenda; and sacrifice the interests of others if in doubt.

Neville Anderson, Hong Kong,

It's all about gas. France alone has a bigger economy and military expenditure than Russia. Continental Europeans don't fear Russia because of its "power" but simply because they don't want to mess up with the country that heats their houses. We should have all gone nuke a long time ago.

Horace, Florence, Tuscany, Italy, EU

This analysis is misleading. The EU was in the best position to act and it did so. The EU has supported the French position. The US has rightly acknowledged that the EU is in a better position and has endorsed the EU position. Do not pay too much attention to the rhetorics of divide within the West.

Michael, Sheffield,

Hang on - who started this war? One of the russian peacekeepers who was killed initially, was from my wife's city,Pskov,and has left behind a partner and baby-daughter. Saakashvili should be on war crimes charges. NATO is supporting a criminal. And why encircle Russia?Would the US tolerate the same?

David Fergus, Padiham, UK

To Tim from Bon. So in your opinion Peacekeeping force can demolish cities, military instalation, force citizens to leave. Bring pramilitary troops with them and allow then loot and threat? BTW South Ossetia si part of Georgia ergo Georgia never attacked Russia.

Pawel, Pszczyna, PL

To PhilTR, Birmingham, AL, USA:

What you say is probably right, but it applies to your own country, to start with.

No American has moral right to teach the world about democracy, not after having killed hundred of thousands, not after the past decades US behaviour in iberoamerica and so forth

jaims, Barcelona, Spain

"Timeline 7 August Georgian forces shell Tskhinvali." No matter how Russia reacted, to shell ones own population in an attempt to resolve a political problem by military means, is not the action of a democratic country. The UK should stop any move to give Georgia membership of the EU and Nato

Anthony J, Alton, Hampshire

Americans, you have watched too many action american movies, except for the USA noone wants to conquer the world. Funny to read about bullying and all that stuff. Your fox TV and other media know the truth and you are shown what they want you to think. Have you seen this episode with a girl and her?

Maria, Russia, Moscow

we heard a lot abot Russia's unacceptable and outrageous behaviour in Georgia. And rightly so.

But what about Georgia's attack on civilian population that started it all? Did they not rain Grad rockets on their own civilian population? Or is that ok, since it is coming from a nato candidate?

ludvig, salzburg, eu

Tut, tut, all these attacks on Russia! The Americans say: Europeans have tribal wars, Chinese ill treat their ethnic miniorities- despite these miniorities increasing their numbers under Chinese rule. The Americans have no tribal problems because they murdered most of their Natives! Dare print this!

ian cheese, london, uk

To PhilTR, Birmingham USA
You said when a bully steps out of line he needs to be put on his hind end quickly otherwise he is likely to think that he did a good thing. I know what you mean look at USA, UK and EU what they are doing to smaller countries e.g IRAQ stealing oil who will put in line.

Marko, Birmingham, UK

Must be worrying for Russia. All their former territory in Europe has now been, or is being swallowed up by the EU and/or NATO. No wonder they're aggressive.
It's time the EU built a military on a par with the USA to counter Russia.

Phill , The Wirral, England

So France and Germany want to avoid a "knee jerk" reaction. Well, how about a tanks in the street? Doesn't that get the knees jerking a little? Or shall we waste a few years on pointless EU beaurocracy? The EU is a foreign policy waste of time. Divided and toothless. See Yugoslavia.

mark, Glasgow, UK

We don't need more territories! But S. Ossetia become part of Russian Empire at 1774.
The problems starts at Soviet time when Georgians who rule that time (Stalin, Beria) put territies of Abhazia and S. Ossetia to Geogrian SSR but as autonomus republics! In 1990 Georgia broke this status.

Kamil, Chelaybinsk, Russia

All world must be more persevering to Russia.
Our gas and oil must not replace human equity.
Our president and his friend from KGB solves his own aims and make money in this war. The Peace enforcement from Russia to Georgia must continue with Democracy enforcement from All Human World to Russia.

Sergey, Moscow, Russia

"A United Nations aid convoy, entering the Georgian town of Gori, says the buildings there do not appear to be badly damage".
As for the UK they are just the usual lap dog of the Big Bad US. Nato Needs to look to Europe for direction. England will follow like a puppy to the US. No strong leadership

Darren, London, UK

Are government is scared due to the depletion of our ability to build any form of defense equipment. Our aviation, ship building & ordenance capabilities have been slaughtered (previous governments did this too). So now we have found ourselves exposed, all in the name of greed!

Pete, St Albans, England

Sergey - You're correct that NATO is anti-Russian. NATO could have been disbanded after the break up of the Soviet Union, as a gesture of solidarity.

Do you think Putin playing hardball will really benefit Russia? Instead of having the docile EU, you might have some tanks at your border.

Paul Bird, Osaka, Japan

Germany buys about 40pc 'gas' from russia. Should russia decide not to deliver for any reason: we'll just buy gas somewhere else because: unlike crude there's plenty of natural gas availible for at least a 100 years!
Russia cut supplys to Ukraine, Poland, etc. because they didn't PAY THEIR BILLS..

Sven N., Germany, Europe

You, American guys, always pry into what is none of your business. Electing a clinical idiot as your President says enough of your common mental level.
Mind your own business and remember: long nose always gets cut off in the end.

Vladimir, Saint-Petersburg, Russia

I wonder how the Kremlin would react if every EU/American country said they too had the right to protect their citizens anywhere. Including in Moscow.

Kosovo was different to S. Ossetia. There was evidence of genocide against Kosovans. And even so, the Russian Army tried to annexe Pristina Airport.

Pete, Billericay,

I dont think russia should be able to kill gorgians and threaten polish just because they are being offerd to join nato its just selfish

josh , taunton, england

Peter, from Canada: are you honestly calling Britain a coward for taking no real actions? You are writing from Canada, remember, a country which isn't exactly known for 'bottle' in case you have not realised that yet. The greatest support anyone can expect from you is a shipment of maple syrup.

William, Oxford, United Kingdom

I don't think Russia will be too concerned about losing business opportunities with a bankrupt UK economy.!!!! It's time for British MPs to recognise that they might need Russia's assistance in the years ahead.

Raymond Atkinson, Belfast,

Before USA end up fighting...and paying for another war?? They could just go down the road of War Profiteering instead...sell arms to both sides...fund separatist action then only get involved whern they realize they've created a monster that will devour them too. The word deluded springs to mind

Antony , Paphos, Cyprus

Democracy Western style: Invade illegally Iraq & Afghanistan, bomb Serbia for nearly 2 months, partition Serbia without UN resolutions, bomb Lebanon for 1 month with western blessing, hold and torture suspects in Quantamo without trial, torture of inmates in Iraq

Joe, london, uk

Remember ... all of Europe's gas comes come Russia.

Vishal Patel, London, UK

No it doesn't , comrade.

Beckerman, Windsor,

USA & Gb on one side and Germany & France on the other
side- sums up these so called alliances.
Don't worry folks France won't go to war until they are invaded and then they will fight to the last foreign solder ..
Germans are not allowed to fight at night

mike, thame, uk

a Russian opinion: Nato IS an anti-Russian alliance, has always been and will always be. Thus inviting Gerogia into Nato is the same as saying: why don't you Russians attack Tbilisi, before it's too late. The bullying of Russia started with Serbia and "action" plans" for its former territories.

Sergey, Moscow, Russia

When the soviet Union dissolved NATO should have self-destructed to allow a new world order to flourish.....without any threat of war or conflict for the world, and for man to lvie in peace and goodwill of brotherhood of nations. The only disaster - USA, the superpower with the pea sized brain!

tuyiang, KL, Malaysia

The cease fire deal is in action. No shooting from all sides. What Russia does is demolishing of the Georgian military infrastructure, before withdrawing the troops. Do they have right? Yes. They are winners and they were not first to start this small war.

Tim, Bonn,

The Americans know all about how bullies should be handled.

They sat out the first 2 years of WWII.

They set the current precedent for invasion and bullying with Iraq, Iran, etc.

And the world failed to kick them out of the WTO, G8 or NATO.

Russia thinks it can also get off just as easy.

Keith S, Winnipeg, Canada

Remember ... all of Europe's gas comes come Russia.

Vishal Patel, London, UK

I am appalled at the rubbish and factually incorrect statements about how this started and who is to blame. If you don't confront Russia now then Ukraine will be under Russian domination within 2 years as the Russians protect 'their' people in Crimea. Germany has sold Nato out for cheap Russian Gas

Riley, Kiev, Ukraine

Do young soldiers who pledge to defend THEIR countries want to die for Georgia? Once more we see US & UK governments wanting to fight to the last drop of other peoples blood. It is North Atlantic, NOT Northern Hemisphere Treaty Organisation. Merkel may ensure a very cold gasless winter for Germans.

alexander, victoria, Seychelles

Get the US of A out of NATO/UN/SEATO...and let you gentle people fix 'your' world problems with PUTIN...Oh, don't call us, we'll call you....I can feel the 'love' from here......

Mr Tim, san marcos, U S of A

The hypocrisy astonishing!
> Israel to bombed Lebanon for 35 days with the west blessing
> United States & NATO bomb Serbia for 78 days
> The west allows Kosovo to be independent
http://www.antiwar.com/pat/?articleid=13305

Ivan, ACT, Australia

If the Europeans go for another Chamberlain solution then NATO means nothing. Unfortunately, the Europeans still haven't learned that sometimes you have to confront the enemy. We can't keep bailing them out.

We should just pull out before we windup fighting (and paying for) another European war.

Jim, Phoenix, USA

To Phil in Hong Kong:
Independence/self-determination for Hong Kong would seem logical as welll...what happened??

Jim, Phoenix, USA

If it is all about democracy: bad guys (Russia) vs good guys Americans, how come you do not publish opinions from Russia? Why is it ok for the US to kill 1 mln civilians in Iraq and hang Sadam without trial, make Georgians shell S Ossetians and then not report about victims? Is it democracy?

Nik, Moscow/Sydney, Russia

Its embarrassing to watch this Cowardice by NATO. France, Britain, US, Germans, Italians all cowards The only ones with any bottle is Russia. I predict Russia and China will take over the whole world, But when this starts it will be too late for NATO to get brave they will have missed the boat.

Peter, Vancouver BC., Canada

After Poland`s reluctance over the missile shield, events that happened recently, sadly, have given the US even more control in Poland now. It is to be remembered that Hitler said that without the help of US big business, he could not have attacked Poland.Look up US big business and the Nazis.

margie , victoria, australia

Russia/China are gearing up to take on the USA. This can be "read" into some of the Book of Revelation...e.g. where we see a 200 million soldier army called the kings of the east moving across asia towards Israel without any USA to stop it. Christians worldwide know whats going on. USA...dont sleep.

G.Gibson, Sydney, Australia

I'm just reading a book detailing our disastrous foray in the Balkans leading to AQ's presence and a foothold in Europe. Bin Laden actually visited Sarajevo! Paradoxically we supported the breakaway Saudi funded Muslims in Kosovo Now Russian South Ossetians are demanding similar and we demur. Why?

logdon, stockport,

To PhilTR, Birmingham, AL, USA:
Whom are you talking about? May be your own country?

Anna, Moscow, Russia

Georgia behaved much as Serbia, attacking its minority groups. Surely S Ossetia should follow the example of Kosovo?

This suggests the West just acts to oppose Russia in all matters and does not act on any democratic principle.

Independence/self-determination for S Ossetia would seem logical.

Phil, Hong Kong,

Make no mistake about it. NATO--"old Europe"--will spinelessly whimper and turn tail on this one, too. As usual, it will take the craven and dastardly way out. It will ONLY stand up against the feeble petite despots of the Balkans. The leaders of freedom were of another generation.

Bob Evans, Anaheim, California

German was probably right to oppose initiating the membership process for Georgia. It wasn't worth provoking Russia.

However, given the Russian actions (they aren't even really honoring a cease fire that gave them everything the said they were there for) the time has come for a firm response.

Summers, Menlo Park, ca, USA

Atten: Michael Evans. Re: Your column of 08-17-08. Shades of Neville Chamberlain doing business with Hitler, prior to WWII. We should have learned from that fiasco, when we gave Hitler what he wanted
in order to have peace, it only sharpened the dictator's appetite for additional conquests.

Kenneth B. Smith, P.E., Wilmington, DE, USA

the german foreign minister says we need clear lines of communication with europe. you'd think that the germans would know from history exactly what communication achieves with dictators. after all neville chamberlin had his piece of paper

will, grimsby, uk

When a bully steps out of line he needs to be put on his hind end quickly otherwise he is likely to think that he did a good thing. Phil

PhilTR, Birmingham, AL, USA